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PWO Carbohydrates

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:37 pm
by Justin
Hey guys I've recently read your article about post workout carbohydrates however I read several other articles that seem to lea towards low carb post workout:
Post Exercise Carbohydrates May Be Counter-Productive
2007 Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale

At this time the consensus in the literature is that the use of a balanced amino acid mixture along with glucose or high glycemic carbohydrates taken immediately after exercise and then again a short time later would seem to optimize the immediate anabolic effects of exercise.1

There’s no doubt that the use of the individual and combinations of amino acids both before, during and after exercise has significant short term effects on protein synthesis and the exercise and post exercise hormonal milieu. However, very little research has been done on the long term benefits or drawbacks on body composition and performance of using post exercise carbohydrate intake.

However, a recent study assessed the need for co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.2 The results of the study showed that the use of a protein hydrolysate alone was enough to increase protein synthesis after exercise and that the addition of carbohydrates did not further increase protein synthesis.

Not only is the use of post exercise carbohydrates non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by protein intake after exercise, it can actually be counter productive.

There is no doubt that the timing protein nutrition after exercise is crucial for increasing skeletal muscle protein synthesis and an overall net balance.3 Exercise provides an adaptive response so that the body is able to make use of any nutrition supplied post exercise.

Nutrient intake on its own provides a storage response so that if one is fed or receives an infusion of mixed amino acids after a fasted period, protein synthesis increases, whereas protein breakdown remains the same or decreases slightly, which is different from the response after exercise.

Without nutrient intake after exercise protein synthesis and protein breakdown are increased but net balance does not become positive as it does after amino acid intake after fasting. Because of the exercise stimulus, when amino acids are provided after exercise protein synthesis increases more than that after exercise or AA feeding alone, and protein breakdown remains similar to exercise without feeding. Thus the provision of AA enhances protein synthesis and leads to a positive net protein balance and an overall increase in protein accretion.4

In addition, while the increase in protein synthesis after feeding is a transient storage phenomenon, physical exercise stimulates a longer-term adaptive response. Providing nutrition after physical activity takes advantage of the anabolic signaling pathways that physical activity has initiated by providing amino acid building blocks and energy for protein synthesis.

Glycogen compensation and super compensation (after glycogen depleting exercise) after exercise requires a substantial carbohydrate load that results in a quick and large increase in glycogen levels in both liver and skeletal muscles. Once the stores are full, or even super full, the stimulus declines dramatically. However, if no carbohydrates are given post exercise the muscle will maintain a capacity to full compensate or supercompensate glycogen until enough carbs are either available through the diet or by gluconeogenesis to fill the glycogen stores as much as possible.5

Because of the over emphasis placed on maintaining glycogen stores to maximize exercise performance, much of the research has centered around the effects of post exercise carbs, and post exercise carbs combined with protein,6 and the effects these have on glucose transportes (GLUT1, GLUT2, GLUT4), glucose metabolism, including levels of hexokinase and glycogen synthase, and insulin,7,8 there’s not much out there dealing with just the use of protein and fat after exercise.

The usual advice is that carbs, with some protein thrown in, are a necessary part of post exercise nutrition regardless of diet that you’re following, including a low carb diet.9,10 However, that’s not true. In fact the use of carbs post training can be counter productive and eliminating post training carbs can have added anabolic and fat burning effects.

That’s because the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically.

As you know this statement runs counter to present thinking and research about post exercise nutrition although we’ve mentioned that one recent study showing that carbohydrate intake after exercise is non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by the use of a protein hydrolysate post exercise.

However, the study did not go as far as to state that the use of carbohydrates can actually be counter productive. As such, let’s take it step by step so that I can make my reasons for the above statements clear and easier to understand.

First of all it’s well known that a single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days.11,12

It’s also known that a bout of resistance exercise results in a significant decrease in glycogen and that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen.13

Glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis are enhanced in the presence of insulin following an acute exercise bout that lowers the muscle glycogen concentration and activates glycogen synthase.14,15

Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.16 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity.17

Along with glucose uptake, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis also increase. As well, the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel also rises after exercise since glycogen resynthesis takes priority to the use of glucose for aerobic energy.

However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel.

By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body’s metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise.

This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect.18

As well, the type of protein used post exercise can have an effect on glycogen levels and thus the anabolic stimulus. For example it’s been shown that a fast protein, such as whey protein, leads to increased glycogen levels over slow proteins such as casein.19

In the long run, the optimal protein for increasing protein synthesis, decreasing catabolism and increasing muscle accretion is a blend of slow and fast proteins, plus the addition of a few other useful ingredients.
and
m J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293(3):E833-42. Epub 2007 Jul 3.
Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.
Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.

Department of Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. R.Koopman@HB.unimaas.nl
Abstract
The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 +/- 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C(6)]phenylalanine, L-[ring-(2)H(2)]tyrosine, and [6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 +/- 2.9 vs. 3.7 +/- 0.5 and 1.5 +/- 0.2 U.6 h(-1) x l(-1), respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (R(a)) and disappearance (R(d)) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose R(a) and R(d) were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 +/- 0.01, 0.10 +/- 0.01, and 0.11 +/- 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.
What do you guys think of these studies?!?

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:37 pm
by Justin
here is another study
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
Abstract
PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism.

METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5)

RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis.

CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.
The thing is that the insulin spike will reduce cortisol which is beneficial!

This is why I also believe Pre and Intra workout nutrition is key for carbohydrates and is one of the reasons why the BP kicks asss :)

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:08 am
by comon
That article is much better one and helpful also.. I like that one also.... Keep sharing more one with all of us at the forum...

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:12 pm
by matter2003
I have gained a full 1 inch on my arms and 1.5 inches on my chest, along with losing 1.5 inches from my waist in 3 months by Rob's method. Until the study can show that type of result, I'll listen to Rob....

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:55 am
by Justin
HAHAH I listen to Rob also I just found this interesting :p I think from the "Intra" drink the need for the full meal of more High glycemic carbs is not necessary

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:25 am
by the_buffer
I'm a bit fuzzy on this subject, but I think one of the key points is insulin sensitivity...

Because weight training increases insulin sensitivity I think the idea of post WO high-GI carbs is to exploit this by cramming as much in there as possible, and creating an insulin spike which is thought to help transport amino acids to the muscles...

But I seem to remember Dr. Connelly having something similar to these articles to say on the subject, and it could be that this method has a better long term affect.

Definitely interesting material.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:54 am
by askmass
For everything Di Pasquale has gotten right over the years, he has also missed the mark on about as many, if you ask me.

He was good at reinventing what was already proven (with the high protein diet), but he was no real innovator of any sort.

Randall Strossen was an innovator.

I have seen Di Pasquale be very ill informed on nutrition, and his juiced up powerlifting physique never impressed me - strength notwithstanding.

My 2 cents.

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:10 am
by the_buffer
Okay, it took me a while but I found it...

Dr. Scott Connelly talks about the need for carbs post workout (about half way through the show):
https://www.rxmuscle.com/hmr-radio-show/ ... -2394.html

based on info from this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131864

Anyway, I've been experimenting with taking the Karbolyn mixed with BCAAs & creatine pre and intra workout, then about 15g of protein isolate, 15g protein hydrolystate + leucine post workout... seems to be working pretty well so far.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:07 am
by RobRegish
LOTS of great discussion here, and it's fertile ground for some GREAT minds, so do soak up as much info as you can from both camps. Having said all of that, some insight insofar as to how I arrived at my conclusions/recommendations...

It IS possible to recover peak muscle torque shortly after training WITHOUT carbs, and thus squeezing more productive sessions into every week/month/year etc.. This is the fulcrum of long term progress/muscle gains. Make no mistake - Real, drug free muscle is built this way.... week after week, month after month and year after year.

Trouble is, only Dr. Scott Connelly's genuine article Progenex made it "easy" enough to do so, particularly if you're an ectomorph and/or have ecto-leaning tendencies. MANY who come to BP are in this boat. Add to that the fact that some don't oxidize fats well/do well on a low carb diet AND, it's not the easiest diet to comply with and you have two significant barriers to such a solution. There's a LOT of trial and error for example, that goes into finding which amino acid/combination stimulates the optimal amount of insulin release, in the absence of carbs.

You can START by replacing whatever simple carb you're using with an equal amount of glutamine. This doesn't work for everyone, and glycogen storage via glucogenesis in the liver (IMO), takes time for the body to "learn". YES, it'll work well enough to keep you alive if carbs/glucose isn't around... BUT you need look no further than this, to tell you there's a time lag involved: Clear glucose too fast before your body can transition into glucogenesis and what happens? (i.e. the clowns that inject too much insulin)

Um, you DIE (diabetic coma)....

So what's the solution? I pursued amylyopectins (high molecular weight, modified starches) as the ideal solution. The difference between these and your typical glucose, sucrose, or dextrose alternative isn't just marketing hype. You can objectively see the difference - on both the glucometer and YOU! Hell, you can tell the FIRST time you use them vs. dextrose! Go ahead and slam anything north of 75g or more with any amount of hydrolyzed whey, etc you'd like. You'll feel and look like shit in short order...

Those of you who have read 3.0 know I used a glucometer to refine my recommendations. This was expensive as HELL, time consuming (many months), and the novelty of pricking your fingers wears of REAL fast.

Carbs intra workout to replenish glycogen, recover faster and positively modulate insulin/cortisol etc. isn't for everyone. However, had I gone in the other direction FAR more people would have suffered a high failure rate.

And that ain't what I want, for my Believer's... :)

I'm pleased to say that the VAST majority LOVE "The Formula", and do incredibly well with it. In fact, I honestly haven't heard ANY complaints, save the price of buying the bulk raws all at once. I even came up with a solution for that for you too. That being "The Formula, Lite"....

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:50 pm
by scoooter
Ok, I'm learning alot, but I'm just a simple guy so I tend to focus on the simple answers best, like - will I gain fat or not be able to reduce my buldging belly by adding additional carbs using the formula ?

My body type is ecto but could also fall into the skinny fat guy. At 6' I'd say I'm tall and lean but my belly tends to be distended (sticks out) and is round. I'm told I should add more mass to my frame and this will hide the belly by making it blend in and less noticeable. Ok, but adding real clean mass takes a long time and I don't want to do trial and error, so if I ingest the formula will this prevent a reduction in belly size because of too many carbs ?

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:12 am
by RobRegish
scoooter wrote:Ok, I'm learning alot, but I'm just a simple guy so I tend to focus on the simple answers best, like - will I gain fat or not be able to reduce my buldging belly by adding additional carbs using the formula ?

My body type is ecto but could also fall into the skinny fat guy. At 6' I'd say I'm tall and lean but my belly tends to be distended (sticks out) and is round. I'm told I should add more mass to my frame and this will hide the belly by making it blend in and less noticeable. Ok, but adding real clean mass takes a long time and I don't want to do trial and error, so if I ingest the formula will this prevent a reduction in belly size because of too many carbs ?
The short answer is NO, it won't add fat - IF you find your carbohydrate threshold. To accomplish this, start with 50g of Pure Karbolyn/other amyloyopectin like product. Ensure a 2:1 carb to protein ratio and take it from there.

MOST will find their threshold within 3-4 workouts by adjusting up/down. If, after 4 such experiments you're still putting on fat, it's likely time to explore the carb cycling/carb free approach.

It's a safe bet, that carb cycling (vs. carb free), is the logical conclusion. Where and when (timing), is important in life. Carbohydrate ingestion to optimize performance/aesthetics is no exception... :)